Mannochmore / Loch Dhu V2?

All your whisky related questions answered here.
Deactivated Member

Mannochmore / Loch Dhu V2?

Postby Deactivated Member » Fri May 05, 2006 7:28 pm

On another forum, someone has just asked whether a rumour they heard is true:

It seems there is an idea beginning to circulate that Mannochmore are planning the release of another black whisky, with a name other than Loch Dhu.

Can anyone shed any light on this; true, maybe or silly rumour?

Thanks,
WH

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Sat May 06, 2006 8:39 am

Thanks C_I,
I was asked the question and although I thought it unlikely after the horror of Loch Dhu, I decided to ask on here just in case anyone may have heard anything to the contrary.

Loch Dhu was a strange phenomenon, I have as yet to hear anyone say they like(d) it to drink. But it was something unusual and was very successful with collectors. Even today it sells for very good prices, but I guess the people buying are not going to drink it.

Conversely, Black Bowmore still great for collectors and a good investment, is also reputed to be a fantastic dram to drink.
I have not yet had the pleasure of trying it, but what I hear from those who have is always very positive praise.

Would Mannochmore try to "get it right" as a next attempt?
Probably not and I think they could only really lose from any attempt.

Thanks,
WH

Jan
Gold Member
Posts: 965
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:15 pm

Postby Jan » Sun May 07, 2006 9:16 am

Actually there is a Black Whisky #2: Cú Dhub

As I understand it, it's made on behalf of a danish importer, but you can buy at RMW and presumably at ohter retailers as well

http://www.macy.dk/cudhub/UKversion/index.html

And no, I have not tasted it - and are not particular keen to do so :wink:

Cheers
Jan

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Sun May 07, 2006 11:28 am

Would you agree that the very existence of Loch Dhu disproves the notion that the addition of caramel does not affect the taste of whisky?

Lawrence
Matured cask
Posts: 5019
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:01 am

Postby Lawrence » Sun May 07, 2006 5:05 pm

Would you agree that the very existence of Loch Dhu disproves the notion that the addition of caramel does not affect the taste of whisky?


It's been a very long time since I tried Loch Dhu but I remember an excessive char taste but I have to suppose there was loads of caramel in the mix.

Ize
Silver Member
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 2:01 am

Postby Ize » Mon May 08, 2006 11:23 am

Alcohol, ash and burnt sugar, that's what my tasting log says about Loch Dhu. *shivers*

richard
Silver Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:53 pm

Postby richard » Mon May 08, 2006 8:09 pm

my tasting of loch dhu was charcoal and liqurice as well as old stale fags i think i can remember
the word on the street was the barrels were double charred this was from a good source

richard

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Tue May 09, 2006 9:17 am

Richard, do you know what "double charred" means?

kallaskander
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby kallaskander » Tue May 09, 2006 9:34 am

Hi there,

"double charred" was the reason given by the distillery to explain the colour of the Loch Dhu whereas everyone knew that it came from the excessive use of artificial colouring.

The Cu Dhub is a whisky which comes from The Speyside Distillery and is coloured in Denmark by the importer afaik to revive the experience of the Loch Dhu.
Why anybody wants to do that escapes me.

Greetings
kallaskander

richard
Silver Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:53 pm

Postby richard » Tue May 09, 2006 7:45 pm

hi kallasander you must be good you know more than the distillery and michael jackson and robin tucek and john lamond

the whisky file =mentions loch dhu the black whisky it has been finished in a heavily charred oak cask

michael jackson =the whisky derives from a secret preperation involving the double charring of selected bourbon barrels the best guess is first a spraying and then a charring -involved caramelization

richard

Admiral
Triple Gold Member
Posts: 2724
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:01 am

Postby Admiral » Wed May 10, 2006 4:45 am

Marketing spin, the official distillery line, and then gossip amongst the "educated" connoisseurs will all result in three very different stories as to what really happened with Loch Dhu.

Frankly, I wouldn't put faith in Michael Jackson's line for a moment. Not to say that he's being dishonest, but he would only be repeating the official line from the distillery. You only need to read some of his other comments (particularly about some infamous Macallan bottlings) to know that he's not going to spill the beans. I think he leaves that for Jim Murray! :)

The word on the street, certainly that generated by folks like us, is that it was caramel, caramel, caramel. My club tasted it one night (sadly, I was absent that night), but they've done nothing but complain about the caramel ever since.

And yes, to answer someone's question above, you can taste spirit caramel in bottlings, despite the "notion" that its undetectable.

Cheers,
Admiral

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed May 10, 2006 5:12 am

Well, it's supposed to be undetectable. But that's assuming you don't dump an ounce into every bottle.

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed May 10, 2006 9:09 am

I had assumed that Loch Dhu used burnt malt - like Guinness. But perhaps it was just caramel.

In reply to the point that noone liked it - that's not the case. I met a woman called Morag who, when discussing whisky, spontaneously said that she really liked a whisky called Loch Dhu, but that she couldn't get it any more. It takes all tastes...

kallaskander
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby kallaskander » Wed May 10, 2006 11:25 am

Hi there,

hello Richard on my bottle of Loch Dhu there is the official explanation about special barrels and so on.
After making the mistake of opening the bottle and actually trying to drink that, I did not believe a word.

In the Whisky Lexikon by Prof. Walter Schobert, a German whisky writer and expert he states that the whisky must have been barreled in 1986 as it came out at the end of 1996 as a ten year old.
Mannochmore was in posession of the DCL in 1986 and Mr. Schobert states correctly that that body was never known as being very innovative or keen on experimenting. Au contraire if you have something in mind attached with DCL it is its conservativ approach. Therefore he goes on it is unlikely that something like Loch Dhu was conceived in DCL times.
He also speaks of the dark brown to orange reflexes in the black colour which is a sure sign for caramel and that UD never admited to the extensive colouring.

Greetings
kallaskander
Last edited by kallaskander on Wed May 10, 2006 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed May 10, 2006 2:08 pm

Kallaskander,
you just prompted me to look at my bottle and I find:

"A fine malt, patiently rested in charred, sweet oak casks to create a whisky as black as night, with a rich velvety taste. Savour the smooth, intense flavour and discover hidden complexities in this unique black whisky"

As for the age / dates:
I bought this in 1997 when I found it in a shop in the UK. So I guess release at the end of 1996 is spot on. The original shop price for my litre was 20 GBP.

WH

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed May 10, 2006 5:12 pm

Nick Brown wrote:I had assumed that Loch Dhu used burnt malt - like Guinness. But perhaps it was just caramel.


I don't think any color would come through the distilling process in that case. Certainly not that much.

richard
Silver Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:53 pm

Postby richard » Wed May 10, 2006 5:57 pm

i was just trying to say about double charring as every one else was going on about caramael which i knew would be in there put in it seems to be a bit of a bug at the moment

my source told me about the double charring as well as fake whiskies
coming from italy and many other things and hes never been wrong yet imust admit i never found caramel as i was screwing up my face i never dilutte my whiskies unless cask strentgh then to what strentgh i lik

my thoughts are still charcoal from the double charring of the barrels and as we can se nobody is really sure we dont believe what the offical line is so who do we believe

richard

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Wed May 10, 2006 8:54 pm

But Richard - I don't have a clue what "double charring" means. Does it mean charring the cask twice? In which case - what does that achieve, that charring it properly the first time would not achieve? I'm genuinely puzzled by this, as I've never heard a convincing explanation, from a whisky journo or anyone else.

I have to confess that, for the moment, I believe the term is a marketing invention, to explain the black colour of Loch Dhu without mentioning the addition of buckets of caramel.

richard
Silver Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:53 pm

Postby richard » Wed May 10, 2006 9:06 pm

hi iain i read about it somewhere i been trying to find out some more about it and where i read it

i thought somebody would save me the trouble

as soon as i fined the info i will put on the forum

richard

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed May 10, 2006 9:45 pm

After a little bit of Googling, what do I find?

Well, it's somewhere in here and dated 2004:

http://www.whiskymag.com/forum/viewtopi ... 6df0a6fb61

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Thu May 11, 2006 7:05 am

Mr T wrote "I don't think any color would come through the distilling process in that case. Certainly not that much"

I'd agree with that.

The closest brewing analogy I can think of is the old McEwan's Pale Ale, which was specially prepared to cater for West of Scotland drinkers' tastes as a jet-black beer. I understand from a former brewer who actually made the stuff, that the colour was achieved by adding (a lot of) caramel after the brewing process was complete. It gave the beer a "burnt", sweet liquorice-ish aftertaste that's akin to the nasty (imho!) flavour in Loch Dhu.

kallaskander
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby kallaskander » Thu May 11, 2006 8:38 am

Hi there,

"double charred" is a ridiculous term in the first place nothing more. If you charr a barrels twice or thrice the charcoal layer gets thicker but certainly not "blacker". If Loch Dhu came from double charred barrels with an excess (if such is possible) of charcoal it would be black and nothing else. But it is not black but brown to orange and we know where that comes from. Whisky that is matured in "single charred barrels" does not show a black colour by the way so why should that happen with double charring? That whisky colour from ex-bourbon casks be they charrd anew or used as they came from the Kentucky or Tennessee distillery give very light coloured whiskies but they show a distinct whisky colour and are certainly not black.
The whole concept sounds more and more like a marketing ruse I think because it is!
New make is clear like water in every distillery I know of when it comes from the stills no matter how dark or light the wash was. Any colour in a matured whisky comes from the barrel or from caramel.

Greetings
kallaskander

lexkraai
Silver Member
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 2:01 am

Postby lexkraai » Thu May 11, 2006 8:58 am

Agree with Iain and kallaskander. Double-charring is a meaningless term until someone really explains to me how you can get from black to blacker. Also, in the US bourbon industry there are different levels of char. Even bourbons matured in barrels with the highest level of char are dark red, and never anywhere close to the colour of Loch Dhu. Then, put Loch Dhu and Cu Dhub together tastewise. Very similar, though Loch Dhu is a bit more extreme. Colour-wise they're also very similar (LD a bit darker than CD). Cu Dhub makes no secret of it containing bucket loads of caramel. Put all this together and the simplest, most logical explanation for Loch Dhu being black is caramel, and heaps of the stuff.

Cheers, Lex

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Thu May 11, 2006 9:05 am

MrTattieHeid wrote:
Nick Brown wrote:I had assumed that Loch Dhu used burnt malt - like Guinness. But perhaps it was just caramel.


I don't think any color would come through the distilling process in that case. Certainly not that much.


You're right, of course. I had forgotten about the ditillation.

Aidan
Cask Strength Gold Member
Posts: 3253
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:01 am

Postby Aidan » Thu May 11, 2006 10:13 am

The clearly used a combination of monkey chemicals and voodoo.

Maybe they used a triple chared caramel. I assume you can have darker caramels. Or, most probably, as suggested, they just used more of the stuff.

Lawrence
Matured cask
Posts: 5019
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:01 am

Postby Lawrence » Thu May 11, 2006 6:45 pm

The clearly used a combination of monkey chemicals and voodoo.


Finally a reasonable answer that we can all agree on!

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Thu May 11, 2006 6:51 pm

So - you're saying it's really Loch VooDhu?

Deactivated Member

Postby Deactivated Member » Thu May 11, 2006 11:03 pm

Charred barrels don't exactly look like charcoal, anyway. The ones I saw being charred at Balvenie looked like very light toast.

kallaskander
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby kallaskander » Sat May 13, 2006 9:06 am

Hi there,

asking around a bit I got a hint that Mannochmore can not admit to colouring the Loch Dhu with caramel because they didn´t!

The secret of the colour lies here:

Paxarette, also Pajarete is the name of a sweet condensed vino de color wine made generally with Pedro Ximenez grapes and finished by mixing the wine with essences, called arrope or sancocho, which are produced by boiling must down to a fifth and a third respectively. Pajarete was popular as a straight dessert wine in England in the eighteenth century and gets its name from a monastery and vineyards situated near Arcos- de- la- Frontera.
Casks are conditioned by using pressure to make the paxarette entering the upper layers of tired or spent sherry casks (I think you could use any othe cask type as well) and the result is quite different from a fresh or refill sherry cask.
On the use of paxarette see here in short.

http://www.bruichladdich.com/casks_sherry.htm

http://www.bruichladdich.com/artificial_colouring.htm

The use of paxarette was intentional with Loch Dhu but I am not able to say when the whisky came into the so conditioned casks.

As I said, that was just a hint and I have no further or confirmed information on the subject. But I am curious.

Greetings
kallaskander

Iain
Double Gold Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am

Postby Iain » Sat May 13, 2006 9:39 pm

Kallaskander, I don't know of any case where the addition of paxarette has resulted in a black whisky (unless anyone has heard that Black Bowmore was "paxaretted"??).

And I certainly don't know of a paxaretted whisky that has that distinctive "burnt ashes" Loch Dhu flavour.

Rather, in my experience at least, paxarette gives a sweet sherry-like taste, as one might expect given the nature of the additive.

Mr Ellen
Silver Member
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:10 pm

Postby Mr Ellen » Sat May 13, 2006 11:33 pm

Well, I guess we'll never get the proper answer to our question until a former employee of the Mannochmore Distillery tells us the truth (whenever that may be :? ).
I do have a couple of Port Ellen's in my collection (matured in sherry casks) that are almost as black as the Loch Dhu and the ones that I've tried have a very strong taste of sherry, i.e. very sweet.

It seems they managed to maintain the secret of the Loch Dhu colour pretty good...

Cheers
___________________
Anders

User avatar
info@astsa.com
New member
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:27 am

Re: Mannochmore / Loch Dhu V2?

Postby info@astsa.com » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:49 am

:shock: If there are any sereous buyers out there I can supply 200 bottles of Loch Dhu at 82 euro per bottle but you will have to pay the importation of the Dhu to the U.K or your relative country .
U.K is 5.50GBP per bottle and the transportation of the stuff is about 1.50GBP per bottle (providing all the bottles go as a pallate).
This stuff is like gold !!


Cheers George. :headbang:

FenrisWolf
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:48 am

Re: Mannochmore / Loch Dhu V2?

Postby FenrisWolf » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:11 am

I'm going to be the heretic amongst the faithful I guess; I liked Loch Dhu, and was disappointed when it went off the market. I was not surprised when it failed; too pricey for the knuckle-draggers who prefer cheaper, blended scotches, too experimental for the purists who defend 'true' single malts.

I can't speak to its 'nose', or bouquet, or subtle blend of flavors that one needs a certain income level to afford the learning process; when one's income is under $2,000.00 per month, dropping several hundred dollars on a single bottle of scoth is counter-intuitive, no matter how much one would like to appreciate it.

I liked Loch Dhu's strong character, however it was achieved. It might not go well with Beef Wellington or Steak Tartare, but it was great with Sirloin Beef patties or Steaks off the grill. While it was available I offered it to a number of friends who, like me, were working class stiffs for whom $200.00 bottles of any liquor were impractical; they also liked it just fine.

Lock Dhu was a niche scotch which unfortunately never had the chance to develop a large enough following to create its niche. Oddly, it reminds me somewhat of the story behind of all things Disney's classic masterpiece, "Fantasia". When it was released in 1940 it bombed at the box office. Classical music afficianados were horrified that Disney took liberties with classical scores to fit them into his film, while his working class audience thought it was much too highbrow for a cartoon. It took over twenty years and multiple releases before it broke even. Now it's hailed as a masterpiece. Loch Dhu will never be hailed as a masterpiece, but it was an interesting experiment that served its niche well, a low end single malt with a different taste.


Return to “Questions & Answers”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests