Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Take part in our whisky polls and votes. You can also post your own polls in this forum.

Have you experienced any religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection

From partner
0
No votes
From family members
1
2%
From inlaws
1
2%
From friends and/or acquaintances
2
4%
From others (eg, coworkers, friends of partner etc)
2
4%
Never experienced any religious objections to whisky drinking/collection
46
88%
 
Total votes: 52

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ClubSmed
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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:55 pm

Novice Scotch Fan wrote:I think this thread is drifting pretty far from appreciation of whisky. Maybe the moderator should shut this down before things get really heated.

Just as Church and State were separated a long time ago (in western countries) so too should talk of whisky and religion. IMHO.


I see your point, but as the good book says "Man can not live on *whisky* alone"
:D

*okey, he might of said bread but this is a whisky forum as pointed out

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:04 pm

anationonfire wrote:Smooth Sailing here!


Still is, as far as i'm concerned! these may be strong views expressed on this thread , but I feel no "heat" or disrespect from, or towards anyone! Quite the opposite in fact - very respectful.

It's a good chance to get to know people better...after all, we discuss our taste in cars, music "what have you been listening to/who have you seen "live"/what films do you like/what car do you drive "etc. So why not life/existence issues?

I like to imagine this forum as a "cyber" version of a bunch of like minded people sitting around a table having a good old natter whilst consuming copious amounts of our favourite dram. :iwbrnt:

Whisky is, after all, the "water of life!" When I dram , I love to do it in company, and have enriching conversations about all manner of stuff, as long as i haven't drunk too much to talk coherently... :insane:

Beside which, whisky IS a religion to some of us. When I nosed and drank a dram of 50 year old Macallan at a tasting a while back(£3000 + a bottle!) it was definitely a religious experience. Same with the Lagavulin 21!!!!!!!

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby les taylor » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:35 pm

For my twopeenyworth I think the discussion has been conducted in a repectful and grown up manner with no one trying to force their beliefs on anyone. And has been interesting reading. With that RB I am in total agreement with you. And hope that if it remains so, and bearing the nature of the subject that this thread is allowed to continue. :)

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Novice Scotch Fan wrote:I think this thread is drifting pretty far from appreciation of whisky. Maybe the moderator should shut this down before things get really heated.


Everyone posting here appreciates whisky and we may at any time make reference to it. Whisky is our common ground.

I agree with Les, ClubSmed and Reggaeblues that this thread should continue. Reggaeblues said something interesting, too:

Reggaeblues wrote:It's a good chance to get to know people better...after all, we discuss our taste in cars, music "what have you been listening to/who have you seen "live"/what films do you like/what car do you drive "etc. So why not life/existence issues?


We are all more than whisky lovers and I often post here while sipping a dram. Anyway, I'm on a short lunch break and with coffee in hand, will address another one of Sean's comments:

pkt77242 wrote:There are a good portion of biblical scholars who believe that the new testament was written in such a way as to prove that Jesus was the one talked about in the Old testament.


Yes, there is a «good portion» of theology professors who hold this view; they are not biblical scholars as such and the distinction is important. Having said that, keep in mind that there is a group of people who earnestly hold that the Apollo lunar landings were actually filmed in the Arizona desert. Another larger group is certain that the 9/11 attacks on New York were engineered by the Bush Administration with Israeli help. Kooky ideas blurted out on a whim are all over.

So, are the New Testament witnesses reliable? or did they doctor their writing to agree with OT prophecy?

Here are some points that you have to consider:

1. The NT writers were by and large contemporaries and actors in the events they recorded.

2. All NT writers were either apostles or associated with apostles and shared the high standard of ethics promoted by Jesus himself.

3. All NT writers (but John) died for their beliefs, violent deaths at the hands of the authorities. None recanted and said, «Wait! I was only joking!»

Historian Will Durant said of Jesus' story,

«That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic, and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels...»

I must return to work. I'll address the remaining points tonight while enjoying...a Laga 16, I'll treat myself!

This is, indeed, a special occasion!

:D

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:04 pm

Apologies for going off topic, but looking at the quote at the bottom of Sean's post,I never knew Churchill drank Irish! :smoke:

Izzat grounds for religious objection?

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:25 am

pkt77242 wrote:Sorry to disagree but even though the NT writers may bear the name of mathew, mark, luke and john they were not the apostles or linked to the apostles. Mark was the first to be written and it wasn't until about 40 years after the death of christ and the last one probably wasnt written till about 70 years after jesus.


The above is wrong. All 8 or 9 writers of the NT were either apostles, or associated with them. This includes Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter and Jude. The conspiracy theorists say otherwise and I'm well aware of that as I have done a good deal of reading the «other side's» books.

You will find plenty of biblical scholars who will confirm that the earliest material about Jesus's life was collected by A.D. 55-60. Historian Colin Hemer confirmed that Luke wrote Acts by A.D. 62, for example. Most of the NT was completed before A.D. 70, when the Temple was sacked & burned.

I could go on. Ultimately, it depends on your willingness to consider the evidence on both sides. I would add that if this really interests you, you owe it to yourself to read the Bible.

Now...don't post any more until I answer the points you raised in your first post!

8)

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:28 am

This is great: I've poured myself a generous dram of Lagavulin 16 and a beer chaser as well. The beer is a Bavarian import, Schneider Weisse, a wheat beer which is brewed dark. The two complement each other marvelously.

Now, to the business at hand:

pkt77242 wrote:The problem is that the New testament botches a fair amount of this such as The birth of Jesus in Bethlem, The two books that talk about Jesus birth give different reasons as to why they are in Bethlehem and there is no proof of a census being done as is mentioned.


1. Only the Book of Luke talks about Jesus' birth, actually. You may be refering to two different genealogies, one presented in Matthew, the other in Luke. One genealogy is matrilineal, the other, patrilineal although this is not apparent on trhe surface.

2. True, there is no record in other sources of a census being taken. This doesn't invalidate the biblical narrative, though. Up until last year, King Belshazzar (Book of Daniel) was thought to be a biblical invention until archæologists confirmed the king's existence. Archæology is still uncovering the ancient world.

An excellent and secular source for biblical archæology is Biblical Archæology Review.

http://www.bib-arch.org

pkt77242 wrote: There is also some proof that the bible was tinkered with thoughout the early years so that it would say what they wanted it too.


Not really. The credibility of such «proof» is on par with the credibility of the idea that the lunar landings were filmed in Arizona.

(This Laga is just exquisite!)

There are something like ancient 25,000 biblical manuscripts in existence today. Far, far, far more than of any other ancient text. By their sheer volume, those manuscripts are proof that what has come down to us is accurate and has not been tampered with.

The only inaccuracies which exist are transcriptional errors, errors by scribe coppyists so to speak. These do not change the narrative and are identifiable and known to people like me. To Conspiracy Theorists, however, they are a source of material to cast doubt on the Bible. So be it.

That's it for Sean. Now for our maker of whisky Jell-O:

ClubSmed wrote:
Liechtenstein wrote:1. God identifies himself with the male principle, not the female. Calling God she is a New Age practice.

Depends on your religion as Pagans (and I believe that Paganism may be older than Christianity?) worship the Godess


Yes, paganism is older than Christianity...older than Judaism as well. It is going through a resurgence now in the form of Wicca and New Age beliefs. Old doesn't mean good...haven't we all met old fools?

This beer is great as well: Schneider Weisse, made by G. Schneider & Sohn, Munich, Germany (they make BMWs in Munich also...)

Reggaeblues wrote:My only regret is that I am not "surrounded" by y'all round a table having this discussion, with an ever depleting bottle of Lagavulin to fuel our flights of fancy!


They have Lagavulin in Heaven. My sources inform me that Hell is stocked by Canadian Club and bad batches of JW Red.

Reggaeblues wrote:Lichtentein, isn't it a bit patronising to refer to those who wrote other texts [Koran, Vedic lit., Bhagavad-Gita, Book of Mormon...] as"fools?"


Did I say they were fools? Maybe I did...blame it on the Crown Royal I was drinking then. Actually, the religions and faiths they back up are foolish, so the texts themselves are...simply, evil. I do not have to respect a lie but I do respect the people who have been hoodwinked by a lie.

Reggaeblues wrote: Hey, I've been guilty of spiritual snobbery, but I've given up trying to "big up" the Bible, say, or even myself, by putting down apparent competitors.


I have also been guilty of spiritual snobbery, mostly when I was an atheist. I am not a spritual snob; as I said above, I do not have to respect a lie. Why would you?

Reggaeblues wrote: I have long been fascinated by the similarities, rather than the differences in these texts, as was my aunt, a very Christian woman who once told me that, though it didn't inspire her to change faiths, she was surprised to find her preconceptions blown by reading the Gita. what surprised her were the parallels with the Bible.


There are similarities in other «sacred» works. The differences, however are profound and irreconcilable. It is a little like being surprised that you, Sean and I all have the same colour eyes...big deal! we are each very different.

Reggaeblues wrote:but we humans love to dwell on the differences between us, rather than the one thing we all have in common. Remember in St. Mark, when Jesus' disciples have been out doing their thing. Reporting back to the Master, they say they met a man "casting out devils" and "rebuked" him because he was not "one of us." JC blows a fuse and rebukes them! "If he was casting out devils he WAS one of us."


Yes...but you forgot to mention that the man was casting out devils in the name of Jesus...not in any other name. This is a very important part of the text. Read it again in Mark 9:38-41.

Reggaeblues wrote:Just because you support a particular football team, or in my case a particular racing driver, doesn't mean that all the others are crap!


This analogy doesn't hold because race drivers are all human with the same goal. When we talk about God, we must determine who is real from who is fake. What is Truth, from what is Lie.

(My Laga & beer are finished!)

Reggaeblues wrote: the word "virgin" in Greek literally means "woman of marriable age." Wow! That's one to set the cat among the pigeons!


My understanding is that there are several Greek words for «virgin» and the one used in Isaiah is the one we understand as «virgin» today.

Reggaeblues wrote:Let us remember that the Bible was written by human beings, no different from you or I. These writers were inspired to record their experiences for the benefit of humanity. However, do you think they were exempt the social and cultural attitudes of the day? I don't think so.


True. Here is an anecdote: I have a friend who is CEO of a company with 4,500 employees. He has a secretary who has been with him for 27 years. This woman composes all his correspondence and signs his name. She knows him and his work so well that their spirits are fused.

What do you think would happen if she suddenly started writing just anything, according to her whims?

She would be fired. And that's what happened to any biblical prophet who disobeyed: he was dispatched by God subito presto.

I could go on...but my post is too long and my glasses are empty.

:angel:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:53 am

Liechtenstein wrote:
Reggaeblues wrote:Just because you support a particular football team, or in my case a particular racing driver, doesn't mean that all the others are crap!


This analogy doesn't hold because race drivers are all human with the same goal. When we talk about God, we must determine who is real from who is fake. What is Truth, from what is Lie.


Actually I would say that it does because non of the Religious texts (as far as I am aware) have been written by a God. They have all been written by humans (Jesus did not write any of the NT) and so are liable to the same flaws and misinterpretations.
In the end it is all a question of faith in that which we cannot comprehend.
If that last statement hold water for you then as I cannot comprehend the purpose of Motor Racing or Football then they are similar to me :D

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:17 pm

ClubSmed wrote:
Liechtenstein wrote:
Reggaeblues wrote:Just because you support a particular football team, or in my case a particular racing driver, doesn't mean that all the others are crap!


This analogy doesn't hold because race drivers are all human with the same goal. When we talk about God, we must determine who is real from who is fake. What is Truth, from what is Lie.


Actually I would say that it does because non of the Religious texts (as far as I am aware) have been written by a God. They have all been written by humans (Jesus did not write any of the NT) and so are liable to the same flaws and misinterpretations.
In the end it is all a question of faith in that which we cannot comprehend.
If that last statement hold water for you then as I cannot comprehend the purpose of Motor Racing or Football then they are similar to me :D


I quite understand! However, to illustrate my point: Football also holds no meaning for me( tho' i am a bit of a petrolhead, to say the least...)However, visiting a friend a while back, he happened to be watching his favourite team on TV, "Man U" featuring "Goldenballs" Beckham, so I graciously sat and watched for a bit . I ended up watching the whole 2nd half, simply because I was enthralled by the skill of the players. "How the f*** did he do that?" So, though not a fan, I was able to appreciate the skills and excellence involved.

Lichtenstein wrote:

"Actually, the religions and faiths they back up are foolish, so the texts themselves are...simply, evil. I do not have to respect a lie but I do respect the people who have been hoodwinked by a lie."

I'm sorry, but this attitude I find just plain sad. When I was 21, I was very lost. Abandoned by my father, undermined by my mother, abused by my boarding school headmaster. But I was reading the Bible. I was taken in by a man and his wife, an old family friend, with whom I lived for a year. He was a Buddhist and an astrologer.( No doubt warning lights are already flashing in Lichtenstein's brain!) anyway, not only did I learn a lot from him, but his hospitality, humility, kindness and generosity were beyond reproach. Yes, he knew the Bible too, and we often talked about it. He NEVER tried to convert me, but "lived" his faith through his actions, and his "being" , for want of a better word. As a Buddhist he felt it his duty to make sure i understood the teachings of Jesus. His was a pure heart, and a heart that had been "tuned" through his Buddhist faith.

If that kindness, wisdom and care, or the teachings that nurtured these qualities are a "lie" or "evil", then my mother has testicles!

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:29 pm

P.S. Father's Day on sunday. My wife has asked me what I want for a present.

Anyone got any religious objections to my asking for a bottle of JW Green?

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:53 pm

pkt77242 wrote: there have been a few major changes [in the Bible]. Our earliest versions of the Gospel of Mark do not end the way it currently ends. The earliest version ends at Mark 16:8. Mark 16:9-20 seems to have been added later and is written in a different style.


Yes, Mark 16:9-20 is a well-known add-on. It does not, however, constitute a major change. Moreover, the spirit of the addition is in keeping with the biblical message. Here is something else remarkable: Bibles identify Mark 16:9-20 as an add-on! This is what my copy of the NIV* says:

The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20

This is what my copy of The Message** says:

Note: Mark 16:9 [the portion in brackets] is contained only in later manuscripts.

So, any reader is forewarned and may skip the passages if he wants. No other «sacred» text cautions its readers as to possible errors. Even transcriptural errors are reproduced - they are not corrected! - in modern texts out of a spirit of transparency.

Unfortunately, this same spirit of transparency is used by critics to condemn the text. No original manuscript has ever been found with an error in it. None. The Bible as we have it is an accurate document reflecting what was originally written.

pkt77242 wrote: the Old Testament has not proven to be completely accurate.


You are at odds with modern archæology here. Archæologists and historians use the Bible as an accurate tool when determining where to dig or how to interpret the ancient world. The OT is considered an accurate account in its historical portion.

pkt77242 wrote: First off the Creation stories are false


They are false? where you there?! The most honest thing to say would be that they have as much credibility as the Big Bang theory...if God exists, they could be true, if God doesn't exist, is the Big Bang true? Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder has come up with a theory that adeptly marries the Big Bang/evolution with Genesis in his book Genesis and the Big Bang.

Again, the Flood story is addressed in Schroeder's book. All I'll say now is that opinion on that is divided as to whether it was global or local.

Now for Mr Whisky Jell-O,

ClubSmed wrote:Actually I would say that it does because non of the Religious texts (as far as I am aware) have been written by a God. They have all been written by humans (Jesus did not write any of the NT) and so are liable to the same flaws and misinterpretations.


Yes. All were written by humans, including every single word in the Bible. However, only the Bible claims to be the very Word of God over and over again. Jesus also called it the word of God:

«Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition...» -Matthew 15:6

ClubSmed wrote:In the end it is all a question of faith in that which we cannot comprehend.


Yes. Faith itself is a gift of God. Not everyone claims the gift.

:thumbsup:

*New International Version, a translation in modern English.
**The Message is a translation in street English.

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:06 pm

Liechtenstein wrote:
ClubSmed wrote:Actually I would say that it does because non of the Religious texts (as far as I am aware) have been written by a God. They have all been written by humans (Jesus did not write any of the NT) and so are liable to the same flaws and misinterpretations.


Yes. All were written by humans, including every single word in the Bible. However, only the Bible claims to be the very Word of God over and over again. Jesus also called it the word of God:

«Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition...» -Matthew 15:6


It is my understanding that Jesus was not around when the NT was first put together. If this is the case how can he claim it is the very word of God? Unless of course it was a prophesy.

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:11 pm

Comments about Reggaeblues' posts:

Reggaeblues wrote:Lichtenstein wrote: "Actually, the religions and faiths they back up are foolish, so the texts themselves are...simply, evil. I do not have to respect a lie but I do respect the people who have been hoodwinked by a lie."I'm sorry, but this attitude I find just plain sad. When I was 21, I was very lost. Abandoned by my father, undermined by my mother, abused by my boarding school headmaster. But I was reading the Bible. I was taken in by a man and his wife, an old family friend, with whom I lived for a year. He was a Buddhist and an astrologer.( No doubt warning lights are already flashing in Lichtenstein's brain!) anyway, not only did I learn a lot from him, but his hospitality, humility, kindness and generosity were beyond reproach. Yes, he knew the Bible too, and we often talked about it. He NEVER tried to convert me, but "lived" his faith through his actions, and his "being" , for want of a better word. As a Buddhist he felt it his duty to make sure i understood the teachings of Jesus. His was a pure heart, and a heart that had been "tuned" through his Buddhist faith.If that kindness, wisdom and care, or the teachings that nurtured these qualities are a "lie" or "evil", then my mother has testicles!


No, warning lights didn't go off in my brain!

If what you want to be is nice, kind, considerate and gentle, there are plenty of religions who will help you do that better than any of the brands of Christianity. Buddhism, Wicca, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Bahai...the list is long!

Religion isn't a soap that makes you a squeaky clean, all-around nice guy...but there are religions that do that, as there are religions that go the opposite way.

God - the God of the Bible - doesn't insist that you to be nice. His first request is that you recognize him as God, period. Very few are able to do that.

Reggaeblues wrote:P.S. Father's Day on sunday. My wife has asked me what I want for a present.Anyone got any religious objections to my asking for a bottle of JW Green?


JW Green? Sounds wiccan to me!

:thumbsup:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:16 pm

ClubSmed wrote:It is my understanding that Jesus was not around when the NT was first put together. If this is the case how can he claim it is the very word of God? Unless of course it was a prophesy.


Jesus was refering to the Old Testament in Matthew 15:6.

As for the NT, it also claims to be the word of God through its writers and compilers. This, however, will not convince skeptics and naysayers.

I'm off to work!

:insane:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:22 pm

Liechtenstein wrote:
ClubSmed wrote:
Liechtenstein wrote:1. God identifies himself with the male principle, not the female. Calling God she is a New Age practice.

Depends on your religion as Pagans (and I believe that Paganism may be older than Christianity?) worship the Godess


Yes, paganism is older than Christianity...older than Judaism as well. It is going through a resurgence now in the form of Wicca and New Age beliefs. Old doesn't mean good...haven't we all met old fools?


I have met, and continue to meet, fools of all ages. How else do we explain to consumption of Johnny Walker Red*
:)
*have never tried this, just the making a wild accusation

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:47 pm

Corinthians 6:10

"nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Ephesians 5:18

"Do not get drunk with wine, which will only ruin you; instead be filled with the Spirit."


If this counts for whisky too it does not bode well...

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:41 pm

Clubsmed, My view is simple. And I trumpet simplicity to all those who look for explannations and fine detail: If you rely on any substance for your happiness, you're f*cked. I discovered years ago that I can't drink away a problem. Thank God! So if I'm down for any reason, I tend to avoid it until I;ve dealt with the problem or time has resolved it.

Again, JC did not turn wine into water!

Lichtenstein wrote: "If what you want to be is nice, kind, considerate and gentle, there are plenty of religions who will help you do that better than any of the brands of Christianity. Buddhism, Wicca, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Bahai...the list is long!

Religion isn't a soap that makes you a squeaky clean, all-around nice guy...but there are religions that do that, as there are religions that go the opposite way.

God - the God of the Bible - doesn't insist that you to be nice. His first request is that you recognize him as God, period. Very few are able to do that."

For God's sake, why does St. Paul list the "fruits of the spirit(not Scotch in this case!) " as being "Love, Kindness, Peace, Gentleness, Joy, Patience, Goodness..etc ?"

God IS Love. So let Love be my default, no matter how crazy I get.

God is simple. Be like a CHILD and you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, is JC's advice. and he ain;t talking about some imaginary heaven when you die. I have chosen, being the pragmatist that I am, to see all his teachings as instuctions and precepts for THIS life, THIS moment. Works for me, everytime!

Because, here's the Truth, we cannot, in reality, but only in our minds and intellects, move one milisecond into the future or the past. Oh, but don't we try! If I'm honest, my mind spends a good deal of the day dwelling on anything but "Now." Projections, concepts, grudges...

But "now" is where I am, this breath, not the next one, THIS one. That is the Creator kissing me on the inside...without that "kiss", I wouldn't be able to write this, play guitar, taste whisky....etc.

So, when my wife kisses me, I like to respond. when the Creator kisses me with each breath, I like to respond, a hundred times a day if I can, by remembering that breath. which brings me quickly back to the reality of the gift of being alive. The one thing I live to feel.

As JC said: "The Kingdom of God is within you." Amen. And yet, even that has beej=n tampered with! modern Bibles often say "..among you!"

B*llocks! Amazing how we're afraid of the truth of who we are...

And that is the key. 'God' is that simple. That close. And that is what the Gospels are trying to say. And i'm sorry, other scriptures say it too.

And once you have found that Kingdom, there is one way to improve upon it:

Celebrate Life...with a large Lagavulin!

...which leads to another conversation about "child...heaven...underage drinking!!!!!"

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:28 pm

ClubSmed wrote:Corinthians 6:10

"nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Ephesians 5:18

"Do not get drunk with wine, which will only ruin you; instead be filled with the Spirit."


If this counts for whisky too it does not bode well...


This is about drunkenness, not drinking. You will find many Protestant denominations that frown on all alcohol consumption, especially in the USA. There are probably cultural/historical reasons why Americans have such views. Orthodox, Catholic and Messianic Jews have no such hang ups about alcohol.

Reggaeblues wrote:Again, JC did not turn wine into water!


Amen to that! He turned water into WINE from which we make BRANDY which is a type of WHISKY!!! (or is that the other way around?)

Reggaeblues wrote:For God's sake, why does St. Paul list the "fruits of the spirit(not Scotch in this case!) " as being "Love, Kindness, Peace, Gentleness, Joy, Patience, Goodness..etc ?"


Those are indeed the fruits of a righteous person who lives according to the word of God. In other words, God comes first, then He gives you the ability to bear the fruit that you will be rewarded for. As for the apparent good deeds that non-believers do, God nothing good to say:

-For there is not a just man who doesn't sin upon the earth. -Ecclesiastes 7:20

-The Lord looks down from heaven...all have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. - Psalm 14:2-3

Lastly, from God himself, read Matthew 19:16-26 which is the story of the rich young man. In this narrative, Jesus works backwards, showing that the rich man has done good deeds, obeyed the Mosaic Law and yet they will not get him God's favour. He's still toast!

Reggaeblues wrote:God IS Love. So let Love be my default, no matter how crazy I get.


Love, yes; he's also Just. The rich young man didn't get into heaven because of God's justice.

Reggaeblues wrote:God is simple. Be like a CHILD and you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, is JC's advice. and he ain;t talking about some imaginary heaven when you die. I have chosen, being the pragmatist that I am, to see all his teachings as instuctions and precepts for THIS life, THIS moment. Works for me, everytime!


God's requirements are simple, yes.

Reggaeblues wrote:And that is the key. 'God' is that simple. That close. And that is what the Gospels are trying to say. And i'm sorry, other scriptures say it too.


Other sacred texts may claim simplicity but they are not the word of God, period. Just like there are other women that you may be attracted to but only your wife is your wife. She was chosen by you as a mate. All others are off-limits.

The Jewish people are the Chosen People and they were chosen to bring the Word to the world, none of the others.

Sorry, that's the simple truth...!

I must get back to work!

:mrgreen:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:03 am

Who are you to say that they were any less God inspired, God breathed, than the Bible?

My experience tells me different. but it seems experience counts for little in the face of traditional, religiously imposed labels, like "Word Of God" which is just a man made definition anyway.

To preclude or diss another source of wisdom just because it does not have the religious rubber stamp of "Christianity" on it....THAT is foolishness.

children don't need rubber stamping. but we try anyway...

Let me ask you two things. Are you familiar with Pastor Rick Warren? What is your take on his writings?

Two: Those who wrote the Bible, what did THEY read? Because, whatever it was, isn't that what we should be reading?

Clue: It wasn't a book!

Time for something cask strength methinks...then bed.

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:04 am

Reggaeblues wrote:Who are you to say that they were any less God inspired, God breathed, than the Bible?


I'm a nobody. I'm just telling you what is in the Bible, don't get angry at me! Get angry at God because he said,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God....John 1:1-8

I won't quote all 8 verses, you can read them for yourself in your text and see that they refer to Jesus.

Now, Jesus calls himself God in this exchange:

«I tell you the truth,» Jesus answered, «before Abraham was born, I am.» John 8:58

Jesus is directly refering to God's name here, «I am» which was first revealed to Moses (see Exodus 3:14) some 2000 years earlier.

Other texts can't be the word of God because they teach contradictory things. Islam - for instance - has Jesus as a great prophet, not God himself. JW say Jesus was God's first creation; Mormons say Jesus is this planet's local god, Hindus say he's an avatar (guru), Buddhists say he's an Enlightened Teacher...and so on. There is only one truth and numerous lies...not one lie and numerous truths! Think about that!

You said the truth is simple. I agreed with you...are you now telling me that it is far more complex?

Reggaeblues wrote:My experience tells me different. but it seems experience counts for little in the face of traditional, religiously imposed labels, like "Word Of God" which is just a man made definition anyway.


Religion of all types are crap; I said this at the very beginning of this thread. That includes Christian expressions in religions. I also said that God hates religion - this is biblical - and I agreed with your nun friend that religion is an insult to God. Why are you now defending religions from other faiths???

Reggaeblues wrote:Let me ask you two things. Are you familiar with Pastor Rick Warren? What is your take on his writings?


Vaguely...I vaguely know about Warren. I avoid hocus-pocus religious types, types who heal you, make you rich, make you happy...it's all a cartload of manure to me. The biblical message has nothing to do with making you happy, healthy and rich.

Reggaeblues wrote:Two: Those who wrote the Bible, what did THEY read? Because, whatever it was, isn't that what we should be reading?


They either read scrolls on which the Tanach (what we call the OT) was written out by copyists, or the majority heard the Word from the Levite priests and prophets. Jews - like virtually everybody - had a fascination for false worship and were constantly attracted to it.

Look around...things haven't changed!

I had a great beer earlier this evening. Something that came from Poland...let me get the can... «FAXE» I nevcer heard of it. I'm going to pour myself a Crown Royal now...Cheers!

:angel:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:42 am

Thankyou Sean!

I'm starting to feel like a man enjoying his favourite whisky, and being told no, I'm wrong. It's a terrible whisky - the Bible says so!

I used to love the old Bowmore Darkest. Jim Murray, who wrote the true Bible(if you're a whisky lover) gave it 63 and hated it!

That surprised me, but it didn't change my enjoyment or opinion of that whisky.

Lichtenstein, if the Bible is not about happiness then what is it about? The reason the world is messed up is because unhappy people, in conflict with themselves, create wars with other people and nations. Surely, if the Bible does not address this, then "Word Of God" or not, it's a useless tool!

I actually find it does address this. Those teachings I have investigated and taken to heart, and applied, DO work.

But I don't take it literally. I mean, who needs Leviticus? who needs to burn a cow in their front yard to make an odour pleasing to the Lord? It sure as eggs won't be pleasing to my neighbours!

No, It's a springboard to MY understanding. MY walk. 'Cos nobody else can walk my walk, and I am free to take my fuel from whatever pump I choose. If it gets me to my destination...

And if life isn't about happiness, why drink whisky?

I saw this sign in a pub:"Beer is proof God loves you!"

Anyway, I discovered through my own experience, and nothing else, that "Word" actually means "Breath". This discovery was validated when I met my wife who has a degree in Comparitive Religion, studied the origins of the Bible, and told me without knowing about my discovery, that in the earliest translations "word " was indeed "breath"!

But I knew that already. Then I heard a vicar give a sermon, who said. "The other day a girl asked me how she could get closer to God. I said,how can you get closer or furthur to God when He's with you all the time in the form of the Holy Spirit, which is this breath?" I nearly fell off me pew! i thought "At last! A Christian who understands this!" "

I find when I contemplate this breath long and often enough, it absolutely waters the flowers that Paul lists...it brings me right back to the APPRECIATION of being alive, now! It brings me back to Joy, Peace. Love . Kindness , etc. This Breath is my God-given compass, when my mind is all over the shop, or I just need a moment of silence...my "refresh" button.

People do rosaries etc. amazing! We have one inbuilt!

Check this out. I have a friend ,a "Born-Again Christian" he calls himself, who studies with a Franciscan Monk, who in turn studies Buddhist meditation! My friend said he has learned so much from this guy.

some things in life have no logic. Better get used to it!

I have another friend, an Anglican bishop as it happens, who wrote that it is a mistake to offer the judgment that the Bible is the "word of God" until someone has had a chance to read and contemplate the text for themselves...

That is wisdom.

"First experience, THEN believe..." I say.

How often have I discovered this to be true when tasting a brilliant new whisky?

As it is with whisky, so it is with life!

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:32 am

pkt77242 wrote: As I remember God nor Jesus wrote the bible.


Actually, this is incorrect because Jesus referred to God as author of the Bible when he said, «Man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.» Jesus also said when lambasting the religious leaders, «...you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.»

In my previous post, I gave two references where Jesus claimed outright to be God. Besides that, innumerable references in the OT & NT speak of the scriptures as the Word of God.

So, we have this:

1. Jesus claims to be God.
2. The biblical text itself claims to be the word of God.

So who authored it? A bunch of Jewish men, save one (Luke). Some were prophets, some were kings, some were shepherds, some were theives, most were ordinary men. If you take the time to read through their works, you will frequently come across phrases like, Thus says the Lord, The Lord Almighty says, and so on.

So, now we can add:

3. the human authors thought they were God's mouthpiece.

And we may deduct that Jesus himself gave credibility to the Tanach (The OT) and the NT because he said, «Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away.»

pkt77242 wrote: You start with the assumption that the bible is 100% accurate and so anything that doesn't match is incorrect.


Not really. I started out - like you - with the assumption that the Bible was 0% accurate. I was an atheist from my early teens until my early 40s. I wasn't just some run-of-the-mill atheist, I read atheist books, refused to celebrate religious holidays, refused gifts given to me on the occasion of those holidays, I attended atheist meetings and was active in Ayn Rand's Objectivist seminars and a bunch of other really deep atheist stuff.

pkt77242 wrote: You can't use the bible to prove the bible, you have to have confirmation from outside sources.


Outside sources: that's why I gave you a link to Biblical Archæology Review, a secular (non-religious) - serious - magazine about biblical archæology.

As a former atheist, I really can appreciate the allure of books like Misquoting Jesus because I used to feed on them. But, they are like getting all your information from The National Enquirer. Don't you deserve better? (That's like drinking Scoresby Scotch all the time! Canadian Club tastes like Laga compared to that siht!)

pkt77242 wrote:Shouldn't RB be angry with the people who wrote the bible.


Yes, Reggaeblues is angry with the author of the Bible and so are you. I'm OK with that. Reggae has adopted New Age ideas (all religions are roads to God) and you have chosen atheism/agnosticism.

Both of you are quite lucky as your respective faiths have much more credibility than mine!

:D

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:13 pm

pkt77242 wrote:Liechtenstein, I had to laugh when I saw this, as I am actually Catholic and at one time I considered (and to this day still think about it) becoming a priest


:shock: when I read that, I just about choked on my grits & bourbon!* Well...OK this sheds some light on the issue as Catholics usually do not read the Bible, relying on priests & sacrements to cleanse the soul. Still, this isn't biblical and it remains the domain of human religion. (From Reggaeblues' comments, I also think he's Catholic.) Unfortunately, God hates religion.

As for taking the Bible literally, you don't have to. You can make allowances for hyperbole, metaphore and analogy whenever the context allows.

OK...you can go to Mass now while I answer Reggaeblues!

++++++++++

Reggaeblues wrote:Lichtenstein, if the Bible is not about happiness then what is it about?


It reveals the mind of God. It isn't a book on how to be happy, but if God gives you faith you will have joy and peace even in times of trouble.

Reggaeblues wrote:I actually find it does address this. Those teachings I have investigated and taken to heart, and applied, DO work.


You are right, but that is not its primary message. You can focus on a complimentary message and do quite well, but you are still missing the boat (remember the rich young man who wanted to enter heaven?) I sometimes tell atheists that if they want a good life, just follow the 10 commandments and life will be great. And it's true! it works!

Alas, they are still missing the Maker's Mark. (!)

Reggaeblues wrote: I mean, who needs Leviticus? who needs to burn a cow in their front yard to make an odour pleasing to the Lord? It sure as eggs won't be pleasing to my neighbours!


The levitical system came to an end when Jesus was crucified and said while hanging on the cross, «It is finished.» That is why the curtain in the Temple was ripped in two, exposing the Holy of Holies to all.

The only cow you should be burning is on a BBQ!

Reggaeblues wrote:No, It's a springboard to MY understanding. MY walk. 'Cos nobody else can walk my walk, and I am free to take my fuel from whatever pump I choose. If it gets me to my destination...


Wrong answer! God wants you to follow HIS understanding and HIS walk; to take fuel from HIS pump. Your understanding leads to the pit, not to everlasting joy.

Reggaeblues wrote:I saw this sign in a pub:"Beer is proof God loves you!"


Martin Luther - the Protestant Reformer - is actually the person who said this! Luther loved his beer.

Reggaeblues wrote: I discovered through my own experience, and nothing else, that "Word" actually means "Breath". This discovery was validated when I met my wife who has a degree in Comparitive Religion, studied the origins of the Bible, and told me without knowing about my discovery, that in the earliest translations "word " was indeed "breath"!


Yes, you are right. The Bible is the very breath of God, and it gives life, joy, peace.

Reggaeblues wrote: "The other day a girl asked me how she could get closer to God. I said,how can you get closer or furthur to God when He's with you all the time in the form of the Holy Spirit, which is this breath?" I nearly fell off me pew! i thought "At last! A Christian who understands this!" "


Interesting. You can actually live with somebody and share nothing with them...I've know couples like that. «Closeness» is spiritual, not physical.

Reggaeblues wrote: I have a friend ,a "Born-Again Christian" he calls himself, who studies with a Franciscan Monk, who in turn studies Buddhist meditation! My friend said he has learned so much from this guy.


The Bible doesn't say that other «sacred» texts contain no Truth at all. It says that it alone is the truth from cover to cover and that anything different is a lie. Meditation is OK...it just depends on what you are meditating.

Reggaeblues wrote:I have another friend, an Anglican bishop as it happens, who wrote that it is a mistake to offer the judgment that the Bible is the "word of God" until someone has had a chance to read and contemplate the text for themselves...


Fat chance! Most people just get a Bible and put it on their bookshelf. I don't agree with your friend here.

Reggaeblues wrote:I used to love the old Bowmore Darkest. Jim Murray, who wrote the true Bible(if you're a whisky lover) gave it 63 and hated it!


Murray must be a sissy who likes watered-down Lowland whiskies!

:yuk:

*Hot grits, a dash of bourbon and brown sugar. The Breakfast of Christian Champions!

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby I_SPEY » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:22 pm

Never. The answer to your question, blacksabb.

But I believe in the Greek philosopher Aristotle, who described in
322 BC a simple distillation process:
heating, evaporation and condensation of alcohol.
The process was brought westward by the Arabs
and introduced by the Moors in Spain.
Alcohol Distillation was there originally applied
in the manufacture of perfumes and medicines.
Soon one discovered that alcohol from cereals
could be distilled, since the end of the 15th century
in the Scottish Highlands.
In 1823, the burning of whisky became legal.

So, I believe in whisky and Aristotle

ps. I'm a catholic and catholics love all kinds of alcohol :angel:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Reggaeblues » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:36 pm

First of all, to all dads I say, "Happy Father's Day!" My family bought me a bar of Cadburys Dairy Milk chocolate...and a JW Green!

But now , it's "OK guys, I'm outa here!"I think I've developed a religious objection to religious objections!

But not before having a hearty laugh at Lichtensteins "identikit" of me!

So, this is your Angry New-Age Catholic lie-believin' friend RB saying, "Respect, and thanks for the discussion guys, it's been stimulating," and leave you, no judgment, with something I have found very useful these last 30 years.

first of all, L, what it means is "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every BREATH that cometh out of the mouth of God."

JC is just trying to show you where to place your attention, how to focus on the most intimate and fundamental manifestation of your creator - this breath.

Think on this...and this doesn't come from any book! You say grace for the "bread" you savour, but could live two weeks without, but do you give thanks and savour this breath, without which you could not live for 2o minutes?(the current record for breath - holding I believe!)

the perfect meditation is upon the coming and going of this breath, the most constant, kind, loving, joyful, patient, gentle miracle you will ever witness. Your holy Spirit...right under your nose. I have done this in church, racing a car, savouring a Lagavulin, in a traffic jam, and in the silence of my favourite den. If prayer is talkin' to tha Boss, then this is listening to him...

Do this and you will start to understand your Bible with your heart, rather than your head, and will truly understand that the "Kingdom of God is within you."


Ciao! See you over on the "Best A'Bunadh batch!" thread.

...but not before opening that JWG and toasting the joys of fatherhood, my family, and the father of all fathers...

or as they'd say in Harlem, the mother of all fathers. :iwbrnt:

(and BTW, in the last sentence "mother" is only half a word!)

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Caledonia » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:58 am

pkt77242 wrote:
Reggaeblues wrote:First of all, to all dads I say, "Happy Father's Day!" My family bought me a bar of Cadburys Dairy Milk chocolate...and a JW Green!


And a happy fathers day to you.

Liechtenstein wrote:pkt77242 wrote:
Liechtenstein, I had to laugh when I saw this, as I am actually Catholic and at one time I considered (and to this day still think about it) becoming a priest

when I read that, I just about choked on my grits & bourbon!* Well...OK this sheds some light on the issue as Catholics usually do not read the Bible, relying on priests & sacrements to cleanse the soul. Still, this isn't biblical and it remains the domain of human religion. (From Reggaeblues' comments, I also think he's Catholic.) Unfortunately, God hates religion.


Being Christian (or Catholic) or is not about memorizing the bible, it is about your beliefs and your actions. My faith is evident by how I act, the way I live my life. Memorizing the bible isn't what Jesus wanted, he wanted people who lived like him, who fed the hungry, who healed the sick (or in my case since I can't heal, give time and money to hep), and spend time with the lonely. We are called to live like Jesus not to memorize the Bible.

Sean


Wooo this was getting to deep and complex after a few whiskies, so I just figured that being agnostic I could simply say my belief is Whisky ;)

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:45 pm

pkt77242 wrote:Being Christian (or Catholic) or is not about memorizing the bible, it is about your beliefs and your actions. My faith is evident by how I act, the way I live my life. Memorizing the bible isn't what Jesus wanted, he wanted people who lived like him, who fed the hungry, who healed the sick (or in my case since I can't heal, give time and money to hep), and spend time with the lonely. We are called to live like Jesus not to memorize the Bible.


I am in total agreement with what you wrote above.

Jesus also believed in every single word of the Tanach (OT) and implied that every word in the NT to come is true as well. So, by being a helpful guy, you are fulfilling part of the requirement God wants, but you are leaving out the most important: belief.

Liechtenstein wrote:If what you want to be is nice, kind, considerate and gentle, there are plenty of religions who will help you do that better than any of the brands of Christianity. Buddhism, Wicca, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Bahai...the list is long!


The only point we seem to disagree over is whether the Bible is what it says it is - the word of God accurately reflecting his spirit - or is not. This is quite significant. Remember the rich young man? he did everything right but couldn't enter heaven. (Mt 19:19, Mk 10:17, Lk 18:18 all recount this story.)

Caledonia wrote:Wooo this was getting to deep and complex after a few whiskies, so I just figured that being agnostic I could simply say my belief is Whisky


Baccus is the god of wine...is Johnnie Walker the god of whisky? Jack Daniel? Jim Beam? anyone care to submit a candidate?

:thumbsup:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Caledonia » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:48 pm

i think thats a new poll , the god of whisky !

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:18 pm

Liechtenstein wrote:Baccus is the god of wine...is Johnnie Walker the god of whisky? Jack Daniel? Jim Beam? anyone care to submit a candidate?


Caledonia wrote:i think thats a new poll , the god of whisky !


I have other candidates for whisky divinity:

George Dickel
Basil Hayden
Elmer Lee
Benjamin Riach (a.k.a. BenRiach)
George Stagg

Most of these candidates are American...submit your candidate now!

:insane:

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby ClubSmed » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:59 pm

Liechtenstein wrote:
Liechtenstein wrote:Baccus is the god of wine...is Johnnie Walker the god of whisky? Jack Daniel? Jim Beam? anyone care to submit a candidate?


Caledonia wrote:i think thats a new poll , the god of whisky !


I have other candidates for whisky divinity:

George Dickel
Basil Hayden
Elmer Lee
Benjamin Riach (a.k.a. BenRiach)
George Stagg

Most of these candidates are American...submit your candidate now!

:insane:


I am just going to be on first name terms and call him Glen
:D

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Caledonia » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:48 pm

Billy Walker - personal hero.
Michael Jackson - perhaps?
James gordon and John Macphail - pioneers to Single Malts? (arguably)

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Re: Religious objections to your whisky drinking/collection?

Postby Liechtenstein » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:16 pm

ClubSmed wrote:I am just going to be on first name terms and call him Glen

Glen?

Glen This, Glen That, Glen TheOther...too vague, sort-of Hinduish with the thousands of Glens around.

Caledonia wrote:Michael Jackson - perhaps?


I really like Michael Jackson...but our divinity may be mistaken for the freak in California.

:mrgreen:


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